2500km Old rb25det Highflow Turbo Died, Possible Cause Of Failure? - Page 2

rolls · 28-10-09, 06:44 PM

If you are really interested give gcg a call and ask them. As far as I know they put garret ball bearings in a standard core and balance the wheels, not the bearings.

As it uses a standard rb25 oil feed and core cover I imagine that is why they need the restrictor, they suggest a 1mm restrictor is used.

hemiturbo · 28-10-09, 07:00 PM

aaarrrr... Now it's a bit clearer . Yes they do use garret cores as they can build them to there own specs but still can't see why restrict it unless they remove the factory restrictor maybe. Did they determine which end came out of balance, I assume it was the turbine end. As long a the guys doing it now shaft balance the turbine wheel before the vsr balancing then it would survive. This is the draw back going ball bearing ,It's always expensive to rebuild or change.

da9jeff · 28-10-09, 07:03 PM

are brand spankers that expensive to go to all this effort?

rolls · 28-10-09, 07:03 PM

Yeah apparently the rear wheel came out of balance due to some weight drooping from excessive heat, this then caused the front wheel to make contact.

hemiturbo · 28-10-09, 07:11 PM

OK lets talk excessive heat . It could be too lean, athough you said the mixture a not too lean . Or too restrictive turbine housing ,these are restrictive but only on extreme boost . A rb20 Turbine housing is more restrictive but I doubt it has that. These rb25's have been highflow by many people and not really any excessive turbine heat issues. The only other thing I can think of is a retarted cam timing on the exhaust. Is that possible?

rolls · 28-10-09, 07:16 PM

The turbo was only running in the range of 8-12psi so it wasn't anywhere near its maximum flow so that should not have caused issues.

Retarded cam timing on the exhaust, I don't have adjustable gears so if this was the case surely the car would be running like shit? We did take the timing belt off recently to fix an oil pump housing leak however we marked everything and there was no difference in the power levels or the idle etc after reassembling the timing gear.

Is there any other way that this could be confirmed it was not a contributing factor?

hemiturbo · 28-10-09, 07:23 PM

I would suggest getting it redyno'd and watch the mixtures while watching exhaust housing temps.... Basicly start back at square one. You could double check your cam timing just to be safe.
Good luck

rolls · 28-10-09, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hemiturbo

I would suggest getting it redyno'd and watch the mixtures while watching exhaust housing temps.... Basicly start back at square one. You could double check your cam timing just to be safe.
Good luck

Yep that's the plan, I've gone back to a 20det ecu with a nistune instead of a wolf3d v4 so the tune is going to be from scratch and Ill get them to laser gun the exhaust housing/dump to make sure its not cooking itself.

If the cam timing is out surely it would be running like dick though? like that is something I definitely would notice yeah?

thechuckster · 05-11-09, 11:16 AM

Rolls: the banjo fitting attaching the oil feed to the bearing housing might have a small outlet hole - if so, then that's your restrictor.

rolls · 05-11-09, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thechuckster

Rolls: the banjo fitting attaching the oil feed to the bearing housing might have a small outlet hole - if so, then that's your restrictor.

That is probably the case, I didn't measure the size of the hole but the guy who built the motor said it had one.

rolls · 15-11-09, 11:26 PM

$1000 later and I should get the turbo back this week. Going to get a complete retune with a nistune so I can rule out the tune being the cause of failure, gotta check the exhaust and cat to make sure they aren't blocked either, you'd think you would notice a problem like that though.

2JZR31 · 17-11-09, 10:03 AM

Bummer man. This is why I will only ever buy genuine Garrett turbos (or ebay POS turbos where the price actually matches the quality). I only ever hear these same stories from "custom turbo specialists". Its rare to save money this way.

10sec_rx7 · 17-11-09, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolls

Yeah apparently the rear wheel came out of balance due to some weight drooping from excessive heat, this then caused the front wheel to make contact.

what a load of fucking shit...

how is the wheel going to change weight from getting hot? did a blade break off? as thats the only way it is going to change weight.

fuck some people are awesome at spinning shit..

your egt's would be lucky to be 700deg if you tune is good.. ive put 1000deg egt's though garrett turbos and never had a problem..

i did have a garrett turbo die after 3 pulls on the dyno a few weeks back because someone didnt clean out the exhaust housing when it was cast and the casting fell away and mashed the exhaust wheel.. LOL

stockymcstock · 17-11-09, 11:09 AM

see this wouldn't have happened with a billet turbo. make sure you buy proper reputable brands next time

rolls · 17-11-09, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stockymcstock

see this wouldn't have happened with a billet turbo. make sure you buy proper reputable brands next time

Well considering I got the car for $11k with $20k in receipts and a ball bearing turbo with 12 months warranty for $1100 I think I'm still ahead by a long run.

If I was doing the car from scratch myself I would have bought a garret turbo in the first place but as I bought it with it already on the car it was by far the best value option.

Lesson learnt and it hasn't really cost me anything. I could still easily sell the car for more than I paid for it including the cost of the turbo and everything else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10sec_rx7

how is the wheel going to change weight from getting hot? did a blade break off? as thats the only way it is going to change weight.

It is plausible if you are running 22psi with a blocked cat/exhaust and a lean tune, but I wasn't doing any of that.

10sec_rx7 · 17-11-09, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolls

It is plausible if you are running 22psi with a blocked cat/exhaust and a lean tune, but I wasn't doing any of that.

no even then a wheel wont "get lighter" and go out of balance..

you will burn the head off a exhaust valve or melt a piston before the wheel in the turbo "gets lighter"

inconel has a melting point of around 1300c from memory.. you wont get close to melting it..

rolls · 17-11-09, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10sec_rx7

you will burn the head off a exhaust valve or melt a piston before the wheel in the turbo "gets lighter"..

I'm sure they would have another excuse if I started arguing with them. It isn't going to get me anywhere so a half price turbo is the best deal I am going to get.

rolls · 18-11-09, 04:43 PM

Picked the turbo up today and turns out its an rb20 highflow, not an rb25 highflow like everybody who looked at it told me. This would have caused it to run slightly hotter than it should have, possibly contributing with other factors to its death. Either way it should run fine around 15psi according to the turbo guys here in Adelaide and be very responsive (as already noted).

The balancing nut looks almost like it has been barely touched where as the old one was hacked to shit, this is a good sign as it means they didn't have problems with balancing it like the old one.

hemiturbo · 18-11-09, 05:13 PM

Normally those exhaust housings should be ported to slow down air speed on a high flowed rb20 turbo or it will be too restricted.

rolls · 18-11-09, 05:21 PM

The housings have definitely been bored out but I'm not sure what you mean by 'ported'. Do you mean that a gap is left between the wheel and the housing?

hemiturbo · 18-11-09, 05:32 PM

No ,I mean the intake to the housing from where it bolts to the manifold. I would port this to prevent exsesive back pressure. Similar port methods to head porting. This does make it laggier but the housing size is overly small.

rolls · 18-11-09, 05:55 PM

Oh yep that has been done, the turbo guy here commented that the metal was a bit thin as they had hacked so much of it out.

floody · 19-11-09, 12:12 AM

Jesus...RB20 turbo is too small on an RB20, let alone on an RB25; would want a hell of a flow improvement. If you just wanted to run 15psi I'd have bunged on a $300 VG30DET OP6 turbo or a Neo one.

rolls · 19-11-09, 12:20 AM

Well it isn't an rb20 turbo anymore, it would flow substantially more than a stock rb25 turbo. After speaking to a few turbo manufacturers I believe that the difference is so minimal that after boring the housing/ports out it will be negligible.

It has bigger wheels, ports, housings, garret ball bearings, it will flow much better than a stock 25 turbo. The question is how much worse than a 25 highflow. Yes it does have slightly smaller wheels, but when you combine all these factors I'd imagine it flows a large amount more than a stock rb25 turbo.

From my seat of the pants dyno before it died I would say it was EASILY making 220rwkws. You would never see this with a stock rb25 turbo, and I have been in my fair share, not to mention it made good power to 6 (rev limit at 6k) and felt like it would make a dickload more if the rev limit was increased (wasn't dying off).

Remember 15psi only = 15psi on the same motor and turbo, as soon as you change either of these it doesn't mean anything. Note how 15psi on a 2L motor = ~7psi on a 2.5L motor, the PSI is just a measurement of restriction, it doesn't relate to airflow unless you know the specifications of the motor.

PLAYA · 23-11-09, 09:49 PM

Ats?

rolls · 24-11-09, 12:38 AM

Yeah adelaide turbo services.

RB30-POWER · 26-11-09, 06:53 AM

this thing ripping skids again or been too busy?

rolls · 26-11-09, 10:57 AM

Put the turbo back on but I need to get a dump gasket for the exhaust. It isn't registered and need to go through regency to get on the road so I need some more things done before it will be ready.

Eg plumbing up the catch can to the intake, replacing the carbon canister and a few things like that. Also need to go pick up my stock eco + nistune so I can sell the crappy wolf3d thats on there. Once I get the turbo plumbed up I will start it up and idle it down the road so it gets some oil flowing though, been about a month off the road now.

Hopefully shouldn't be long

T0nyGTSt · 04-04-10, 10:15 PM

yeah i had a turbo rebuilt and it fucked too

agree with old mate RB30-POWER, had much better luck with 2nd hand turbos and just running them until they bust and then getting another one

last stock rb25 turbo cost $70 off ebay...

rolls · 04-04-10, 10:33 PM

Since the new turbo has been put on the car blows no smoke at all indicating that the oil seal was leaking.

Quite likely that a lack of oil flow could cause the bearing to overheat or chew itself out and become unbalanced?

I am quite confident that this is the cause of the failure.

Whilst I have been quick to bash GCG in this thread I would have to say the performance of the turbo is fantastic, amazing response and makes a lot of power. Currently only running 10psi until I get the car tuned properly but it is making 197rwkw at a 6000rpm rev limit.

28-10-09, 07:03 PM	#33
da9jeff the curve mate ping power Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Adelaide Posts: 2,228	are brand spankers that expensive to go to all this effort? __________________ '91 Honda integra - 1.28 lala 39.55 'grove For Sale, PM me '98 200sx - rips a skid

05-11-09, 11:16 AM	#39
thechuckster Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Toowoomba, Australia Posts: 1,346	Rolls: the banjo fitting attaching the oil feed to the bearing housing might have a small outlet hole - if so, then that's your restrictor. __________________ The GT4 daily barge RA65+3SGE - project procrastination ---------------------------------------

18-11-09, 04:43 PM	#48
rolls Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Adelaide Posts: 68	Picked the turbo up today and turns out its an rb20 highflow, not an rb25 highflow like everybody who looked at it told me. This would have caused it to run slightly hotter than it should have, possibly contributing with other factors to its death. Either way it should run fine around 15psi according to the turbo guys here in Adelaide and be very responsive (as already noted). The balancing nut looks almost like it has been barely touched where as the old one was hacked to shit, this is a good sign as it means they didn't have problems with balancing it like the old one. Last edited by rolls; 18-11-09 at 05:57 PM.

19-11-09, 12:12 AM	#53
floody 31 Number One! Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hobart Posts: 3,241	Jesus...RB20 turbo is too small on an RB20, let alone on an RB25; would want a hell of a flow improvement. If you just wanted to run 15psi I'd have bunged on a $300 VG30DET OP6 turbo or a Neo one. __________________ I've seen things you people wouldn't believe, and from this side only! The flight of a half-man, half-bird. Dinosaurs nuzzling their young in pastures where strip-malls should be. Cookies on dowels. All those moments lost in time; gone like eggs off a hooker's stomach. Time to die. - Phil Ken Sebben

19-11-09, 12:20 AM	#54
rolls Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Adelaide Posts: 68	Well it isn't an rb20 turbo anymore, it would flow substantially more than a stock rb25 turbo. After speaking to a few turbo manufacturers I believe that the difference is so minimal that after boring the housing/ports out it will be negligible. It has bigger wheels, ports, housings, garret ball bearings, it will flow much better than a stock 25 turbo. The question is how much worse than a 25 highflow. Yes it does have slightly smaller wheels, but when you combine all these factors I'd imagine it flows a large amount more than a stock rb25 turbo. From my seat of the pants dyno before it died I would say it was EASILY making 220rwkws. You would never see this with a stock rb25 turbo, and I have been in my fair share, not to mention it made good power to 6 (rev limit at 6k) and felt like it would make a dickload more if the rev limit was increased (wasn't dying off). Remember 15psi only = 15psi on the same motor and turbo, as soon as you change either of these it doesn't mean anything. Note how 15psi on a 2L motor = ~7psi on a 2.5L motor, the PSI is just a measurement of restriction, it doesn't relate to airflow unless you know the specifications of the motor. Last edited by rolls; 19-11-09 at 12:32 AM.

28-10-09, 06:44 PM	#31
rolls Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Adelaide Posts: 68	If you are really interested give gcg a call and ask them. As far as I know they put garret ball bearings in a standard core and balance the wheels, not the bearings. As it uses a standard rb25 oil feed and core cover I imagine that is why they need the restrictor, they suggest a 1mm restrictor is used.

28-10-09, 07:00 PM	#32
hemiturbo Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: brisbane Posts: 26	aaarrrr... Now it's a bit clearer . Yes they do use garret cores as they can build them to there own specs but still can't see why restrict it unless they remove the factory restrictor maybe. Did they determine which end came out of balance, I assume it was the turbine end. As long a the guys doing it now shaft balance the turbine wheel before the vsr balancing then it would survive. This is the draw back going ball bearing ,It's always expensive to rebuild or change.

28-10-09, 07:11 PM	#35
hemiturbo Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: brisbane Posts: 26	OK lets talk excessive heat . It could be too lean, athough you said the mixture a not too lean . Or too restrictive turbine housing ,these are restrictive but only on extreme boost . A rb20 Turbine housing is more restrictive but I doubt it has that. These rb25's have been highflow by many people and not really any excessive turbine heat issues. The only other thing I can think of is a retarted cam timing on the exhaust. Is that possible?

28-10-09, 07:16 PM	#36
rolls Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Adelaide Posts: 68	The turbo was only running in the range of 8-12psi so it wasn't anywhere near its maximum flow so that should not have caused issues. Retarded cam timing on the exhaust, I don't have adjustable gears so if this was the case surely the car would be running like shit? We did take the timing belt off recently to fix an oil pump housing leak however we marked everything and there was no difference in the power levels or the idle etc after reassembling the timing gear. Is there any other way that this could be confirmed it was not a contributing factor?

28-10-09, 07:23 PM	#37
hemiturbo Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: brisbane Posts: 26	I would suggest getting it redyno'd and watch the mixtures while watching exhaust housing temps.... Basicly start back at square one. You could double check your cam timing just to be safe. Good luck

15-11-09, 11:26 PM	#41
rolls Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Adelaide Posts: 68	$1000 later and I should get the turbo back this week. Going to get a complete retune with a nistune so I can rule out the tune being the cause of failure, gotta check the exhaust and cat to make sure they aren't blocked either, you'd think you would notice a problem like that though.

18-11-09, 05:13 PM	#49
hemiturbo Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: brisbane Posts: 26	Normally those exhaust housings should be ported to slow down air speed on a high flowed rb20 turbo or it will be too restricted.

18-11-09, 05:21 PM	#50
rolls Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Adelaide Posts: 68	The housings have definitely been bored out but I'm not sure what you mean by 'ported'. Do you mean that a gap is left between the wheel and the housing?

18-11-09, 05:32 PM	#51
hemiturbo Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: brisbane Posts: 26	No ,I mean the intake to the housing from where it bolts to the manifold. I would port this to prevent exsesive back pressure. Similar port methods to head porting. This does make it laggier but the housing size is overly small.

18-11-09, 05:55 PM	#52
rolls Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Adelaide Posts: 68	Oh yep that has been done, the turbo guy here commented that the metal was a bit thin as they had hacked so much of it out.

24-11-09, 12:38 AM	#56
rolls Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Adelaide Posts: 68	Yeah adelaide turbo services.

26-11-09, 10:57 AM	#58
rolls Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Adelaide Posts: 68	Put the turbo back on but I need to get a dump gasket for the exhaust. It isn't registered and need to go through regency to get on the road so I need some more things done before it will be ready. Eg plumbing up the catch can to the intake, replacing the carbon canister and a few things like that. Also need to go pick up my stock eco + nistune so I can sell the crappy wolf3d thats on there. Once I get the turbo plumbed up I will start it up and idle it down the road so it gets some oil flowing though, been about a month off the road now. Hopefully shouldn't be long

04-04-10, 10:33 PM	#60
rolls Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Adelaide Posts: 68	Since the new turbo has been put on the car blows no smoke at all indicating that the oil seal was leaking. Quite likely that a lack of oil flow could cause the bearing to overheat or chew itself out and become unbalanced? I am quite confident that this is the cause of the failure. Whilst I have been quick to bash GCG in this thread I would have to say the performance of the turbo is fantastic, amazing response and makes a lot of power. Currently only running 10psi until I get the car tuned properly but it is making 197rwkw at a 6000rpm rev limit.

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